"The Shack" by WM. Paul Young

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Permalink Reply by Dawn wwt on April 18, 2009 at 8:40am

i'm like you, Genuine, it's hard to know where to start talking about this book, but start we must. like Mack, i have had a picture in my mind's eye of God being a stern, bearded old white dude. and like Mack, i had issues with my own dad that kind of got in the way of being able to see "God the Father" in an entirely positive light. i loved how God appeared to Mack as a black woman and then told him to call her Papa. i also liked that Papa told him that he chose to be known as "the Father" because He knew that the world was lacking in good fathers and He wanted to fill that gap.

Permalink Reply by genuine, wwt, welcomer on April 18, 2009 at 10:55am

Thanks for sharing Dawn.

I too found it "refreshing" to have God appear not only as a black woman, but also as this carpenter and as Sarayu. Apparently some are critcizing the book because of this; they think God was represented inaccurately. Ha! How can one possibly know what an accurate "picture" of God is?
It makes sense to me that God could appear in anyway He chooses .... Papa was first a black woman and then later appeared as a man (saying Mack needed a Father Figure).
Plus, the book is fiction...which is not to say that it doesn't have some very true lessons within it, but simply to say that the author simply created one way God could appear (he didn't acknowledge it as the only true accurate representation of God).

The God I believe in is much like the God in this book....made of love and wisdom and wanting us to live in love.

Some have criticized the book because it shows God as not being tied to rules, rituals, and church services ... I can't criticize that. I do think God wants a relationship with us and going to church and being invloved in rituals may be one way to work on that relationship, but it is not the only way (and I don't think it's the only way God would accept). I would think God would be more concerned with the way we live our lives than whether or not we were at church on Sunday .... you know I can't imagine God working on a point system, giving the most credit to those who spend the most hours in church, read the Bible the most, etc. (which is not to say that He would discourage us from doing those things though).

Permalink Reply by Pat Halverson on April 18, 2009 at 12:28pm

For me it helped to drop a wall I had in really believing. I like Dawn had this picture of God being white bearded, stern, and not only that but if or when I got to heaven he was going to have a record of all my wrongs and rights and I could see no way that it could end up being good. So even though I had heard that God fogives anything and Christ had given his life for me to have eternal life. There was just no way I could measure up. I probably forgot to ask forgiveness for so many things and and had probably commited sins that I didn't even realize. But to picture him as a father/mother I could relate to being forgiven. As a mother I think I could forgive my children anything.

I also have struggled with the issue of why so many terrible things happen to good or innocent people. Especially for me, why my son was stillborn and why my granddaughter only lived 6 weeks. Why so many innocent children are starving, are abused or abandoned, why wars that harm inoocnet people most. For a long time I carried guilt for both my son and grandaughter, thought it might be some sort of punishment for wrongs I had done. I found a greater sense of peace after reading The Shack. And was able to picture them as happy and well in a beautiful place.

Maybe I am reaching and taking it too literally. But I found no peace or comfort in traditional religion or beliefs. In fact have not been to the Church I have been a memeber of for 30 some years for 5 years beause of the unchristian acts of people within the church family. It made no sense to me to sit in worship for a hour every Sunday with the same people they couldn't wait to gossip about and tear apart at coffee the next day. So to those who would criticize it for not being tied to rituals, rules, and church, I would have to say a lot of what goes on within the confines of structured religion is not Godly.

Permalink Reply by genuine, wwt, welcomer on April 18, 2009 at 3:07pm

Yes, Pat, thinking about God as a parent can help when it comes to trying to understand God's unconditional love. Most parents love their children no matter what, don't love any child more or less than the others, but simply love all of their children in a different way ... that's something both Mack and Papa said in this book. So thinking about God as a parent helps, but I'm not sure we can truly understand the love of God .... I think it's like a parent's yet more than that ... I mean if a human being can love like people love their children, imagine how much God must be capable of loving.

One thing that struck me from this book was the thought that God has no expectations of us so we never fall short, never disappoint Him.

As far as our sins go, it seems He's forgiven them before they even happen.

Permalink Reply by genuine, wwt, welcomer on April 18, 2009 at 3:16pm

Oh, the BIG QUESTION for people trying to find faith in God ...
If there's a God, why do so many terrible things happen?

The book addresses it, but we aren't really given a complete answer.
When I first began reading, I thought "there's no way Young's going to be able to answer that question." I am sort of glad that he didn't. We can not know the answer.
We can not understand God's complex plan.

But some related ideas to that BIG question are discussed:
-God's creation, human beings chose freedom/independence ... in order for God to give us that He had to allow "evil."
-According to the book, God doesn't purpose the BAD things, but he also doesn't stop them ... what he does is try to use the painful situations for good.
-It seems we are given only a glimpse of God's plan ... we can not truly understand ... we can only accept, trust God.

Even though we may not be at peace with someone's death, chances are they are at peace with God (Missy was) ... does that bring some peace?


I always wonder....
so many people ask "why do bad things happen?" but do people take time to ask "why do all the good things happen?"

Permalink Reply by Pat Halverson on April 18, 2009 at 7:51pm

I agree, Genuine that we can't even come close as human beings to loving as God does. No he doesn't really answer the big questions, buta gives a a new way of looking at things that make some things plausible and gives a hint at where the answers may lie. Ouch, Good question, Dawn, why do good things happen? Maybe part of why we don't ask is we expect them, but are kind of in denial too and say we don't feel deserving of grace. Which is kind of contradictory isn't it. Now I am confused, because I don't feel good enough, but yet I don't really feel I derserve bad things to happen either!!??

Permalink Reply by Dawn wwt on April 18, 2009 at 9:21pm

i think the short answer to "why do good things happen?" is "because God loves us." but then the answer to "why do bad things happen" seems on the face of it, to be "because God is mad at us" or "because we are bad and deserve it." i don't believe that bad things are a punishment, although sometimes they are the natural consequence of our actions.

i was raised Lutheran. my Mom always said that Lutherans were "Catholics without the guilt" but i don't agree. i think we got to keep all the guilty feelings but were denied the comfort of confession and penance. i even feel guilty over things other people do!

i really liked the part in the book where God says that He has no expectations of us, because He already knows everything we will do. so we don't have to worry about disappointing Him. that was a revelation to me. it makes perfect sense, but i had not thought of it that way before.

Permalink Reply by genuine, wwt, welcomer on April 18, 2009 at 10:14pm

Dawn, I know what you mean about feeling guilty about things other people do .... it's like when someone bumps into you and you're the one to apologize (as if you were doing something wrong by being in a spot they were passing through).


Pat, I can also relate to your feelings about not feeling deserving of good things but not wanting bad things to happen to you either. I had this dream of running my own daycare and having it be successful, etc. Well, it came true. And now I feel like I don't really deserve the reputation this community has given my daycare or the praise I get from some of the parents. I wanted success, but when I got it I felt so undeserving.
I think Dawn's right though. God gives us good things because He loves us. We don't really have to do anything to earn His love (or to deserve what he gives us) .... His love just is (kind of like the poem I posted in the poetry club not long ago). God IS Love.


Oh, about expectations .... God says He has no expectations of us; perhaps we should not have expectations of Him either.
Like Pat said, people just sort of expect the good things (but question the bad).
Why should we have any expectations of God? If He gives us good things I guess we should be grateful and try to enjoy them ... I'll try to enjoy the success of my business. : )

But if bad things happen ... well, God doesn't necessarily make them happen; but He doesn't stop them from happening ... anyway, in the book Papa tells Mack that people have no rights and that it's when we think we have rights and those things are cut off from us that we get upset.
For example, Mack thought he should have the right to more time with Missy and that Missy should have the right to live a longer life ..... if he didn't think that was his right, he couldn't be so upset about losing it (he lost something that was actually a gift or a privelege, not a right).
This makes sense to me. If we think we have THE RIGHT to our children, our family, our friends, the right to healthy lives, good relationships, career success, etc, etc, etc .... well, we will sure be upset when we lose one of those "rights." But why should we have the right to those things? Those things are actually just blessings that we should be grateful to have for as long as we do have them.

Permalink Reply by genuine, wwt, welcomer on April 18, 2009 at 10:18pm

Just a thought to add to this:

If you are upset/angry because someone was "taken from you," perhaps you could try to see that this person was actually "given to you" but only for a short time.
For example, Mack didn't LOSE a child. He was GIVEN that child. He had Missy but not for as long as he would've liked.

Is having that special someone for a short time, better than not having them at all? I think so.

Permalink Reply by Dawn wwt on April 19, 2009 at 7:52am

that is what i said when my sister died, that we were lucky to have had her in our lives for 41 years. still did not make it hurt any less. i remember when she was dying of the cancer being really torn up because one part of me wanted to pray that she wouldn't die and another part of me said that if i really loved her i would pray that she would, so that she would stop suffering. i think that as human beings we tend to view things in light of how they affect us personally and not see the big picture (or the fractal as Sarayu puts it).

Permalink Reply by Peter on April 19, 2009 at 5:23am

I have read the book twice so far, the first time it was obvious there was too much my my male brain to handle, so I decided to tread it again. Even after the second time (and I started in towards the end of the police investigation part), I am thinking I want to read it again.

Haivng said that, there are a number of stand out parts of the book for me. The first is where Missy is playing with Jesus and she comes over the the waterfall Mack is standing 'behind'. I used to make up in my head some of the terrible things that could happen to my kids, the what if's. After reading that part of the book, I now feel a sense of calm, because I can now imagine 'they will be alright'. This thought has carried over to my day-to-day relationship with my kids as I now think, 'they will be alright'.

So the seond stand out part of the book is around Mack's discussion with Papa about religion. I was reminded of a quote by someone, I cannot recall their name, something like "Going to church on Sunday makes you no more a christian than standing in a Lion cage makes you a Lion trainer', or words to that effect. I guess it is easy to be cynical about religion in general, but I think it is important to ask why. In my view organised religion, is not about a relationship with god, it is about power and control, the hierarchies mentioned in the book. I think when women/men put themselves in positions reserved for god, trouble is a brew'in.

Which leads me nicely onto the third standout. Why do bad things happen, and more importantly, why does god allow them to happen? I see Papa as the adult in all of this, and as such, an adult allows their children to learn by making mistakes. When the child continues to make the same mistake, the adult doesn't punish the child by sending him/her away, abandoning them, the adult likewise doesn't step in and do it all for the child. Except in situations of safety, the adult lets the child make the decision, and take the consequence, it is about choice. So as the adult with the big stick, god could step in and do it for us when we stuff it up, but that wouldn't be very responsible.

Similarly, when sitting down to a meal, Mack observes that Papa doesn't need to eat, but does and Papa replies that she is eating to share the time with Mack, who does have to eat. Actually, that part is not similar at all, sorry if I confused you. So I guess my point is that this part of the story resonated with me because just as Papa 'constrained' herself for Mack, I recognised that is what I do with my kids. Not so much to share time with them, but so I do not feel compelled to give them all hte answers. There is such mystery and wonderment to figuring stuff out for yourself. So just as Papa doesn't stop people from making 'bad' (not the right word) choices, to do so would be giving them all the answers.

That might be enough burbling for now :)

Permalink Reply by genuine, wwt, welcomer on April 19, 2009 at 7:54am

I like your "burbling," Peter. : )

It's wonderful that the book has helped you trust that your kids will be alright, no matter what.

I like that part when Mack observed that Papa doesn't really need to eat but does anyway. It made me think about the importance of quality family meal times ... people can sit down and eat with their family even if they're not really all that hungry. It can be taken further too .... parents can lay down and rest with their kids even if they don't really need to rest (oh, what parent doesn't need to rest), they watch their kids' soccer games even if they don't really like soccer all that much, they can watch their kids' favorite shows with them even though there might be another TV where the parent could watch something more towards their liking, they can let their kids help them with things even though they don't really need their kids' help .....

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